Winter Meeting Proposal #3
DL players heading into the draft are allowed to be reserved.
This one is plain and simple, should we change the current rule that mandates DL players occupy a spot on your active roster heading into the draft?
DL players heading into the draft are allowed to be reserved.
This one is plain and simple, should we change the current rule that mandates DL players occupy a spot on your active roster heading into the draft?
I don’t think players on the DL should take up a spot on an active roster. Everyone just ends up having to reserve that player the next week. In soime cases it is so obvious a player is not going to play. Liriano had Tommy John surgery and he had to be on my roster going into the draft. I feel we should all have the ability to have a full active roster at all times
This would allow teams with players on the dl to effectively start the season with more than a 23 man roster. Which gives them a competitive adavantage over everyone else. Don’t why a team with a player should be a given a break.
You are effectively creating a pre-draft reserve list. which would open up a can of works. Players like Wood, Barton would be able to be stashed on the reserve list, while not effecting my 23 man roster. It’s hoarding of players.
Don’t Like
Doesn’t Proposal #1 allow teams to effectively start the season with more than a 23 man roster?
A pre-draft reserve list, for DL players, is exactly what I’m proposing.
I think the current system, gives a competitive disadvantage to teams with DL players. Not only do the players have to be on your active roster Week 1 (and accrue no stats), but you are also handicapped because the pool of players to replace the DL player is severely smaller following the Draft and Reserve Draft.
With regards to hoarding, the salary cap should go a long way in curtailing this strategy, because the DL players still count toward the cap.
Proposal #1 doesn’t do anything of the sort. Those player are on your farm team, not a reserve list. they are taking up a farm slot.
Here’s a scenario: Dice-K starts the year on the DL. Currently, i have to reserve him after week 1 and replace him with player undrafted. Your proposal would allow dice-k to be reserved pre-draft, therefore opening up an additional spot on your 23 man roster for a potential stud pitcher, say R. Harden. So a team effectively gets rewarding by essentially having a 24 man roster to start the year.
I can’t see how rewarding a team by giving them harden over a Wakefield type is good for the league. A one week penalty is the unfortunate price we have to pay because our draft takes place after the season starts.
Every team needs to have the same amount of players on the active roster once the draft is completed. That’s currently 23 players.
I change my mind on this, I’m not for it. I do agree it isn’t right if someone gets a player like Harden because they were lucky enough to have someone like Wakefield strart on the DL. Good point
I like this one, I’d be in favor of it. Teams are already penalized for having the DL player, i.e., he’s not playing and his salary counts against the cap. Why then would we further penalize them by missing a week’s worth of stats? I understand we’re doing it now, but I like the change here.
“So a team effectively gets rewarding by essentially having a 24 man roster to start the year.”
I’ll never understand this position. Every team has a 23 man active roster accruing stats, that hasn’t changed. How is having Dice-K, at 8M, and also having “the stud” Harden at 8M, a competitive advantage when only one of them is contributing to your SOT point total? In your scenario, you’re paying 16M for one roster spot accruing stats, that’s a disadvantage.
“I can’t see how rewarding a team by giving them harden over a Wakefield type is good for the league.”
Where you see reward – and I simple don’t get it – EE and I see a disadvantage. 1) You miss out on a week’s worth of stats 2) you have a salary counting against your cap space that isn’t accruing any points, and 3) you’re not accruing stats from the DL’d player, who in most cases will be better than the player replacing him.
“Every team needs to have the same amount of players on the active roster once the draft is completed. That’s currently 23 players.”
Why? Each team starts with the same amount of players who accrue points. If one team has an extra player on their roster not accruing points, but counting against the cap, how is that an advantage?
“Penalize them by missing a week’s worth of stats”. I’m sure owners would rather see me accumalate one week of Wakes stats than that of a whole year of Harden, just because Dice-k started the year on the the dl.
Under this new rule, here what’s effectively will happen by the end of the draft.
My team: 10 Pitchers (dice-k on dl) replace by harden
Every other team 9 Pitchers (weren’t fortunate enough to have a guy on the dl)
I clearly get the added benefit of having an additional pitcher on my roster. Albeit a stud like Rich Harden if this rules passes.
Is this rule isdesigned to prevent teams from having no accumalated stats in week 1? If so, simply make the “after draft” transactions effective week 1.
Every team has tough decisions to make when submitted keeper lists, there are always players whom for salary or roster crunch are set free for draft day. This rule would ease the burden of that tough decision making.
ONe more example for those confused. Let’s say my roster is full at 23, a week prior to the draft we find out Pedroia is starting the year on the dl. I obvioulsly keep him and say 22 others. Now i have a full roster. This rule would allow to select S. Sizemore in the draft and slot him in Pedroia’s spot. Wherein, the current rule wouldn’t allow me draft a position player since my 23 man roster is full. So my team is actually being rewarded the luxury of having pedroia and sizemore(who wouldn’t have been available to me) on my roster for the entire season. Obviously when DP comes back, a move needs to be made, but who says i don’t trade DP now that sizemore is killing it at the league minimum?
These are SOT that can and will happen if this rule is passed. I’m all for change and making SOT be the best it can be, but this rule clearly gives an roster advantage to those teams who have players starting the year on the DL.
Didn’t see your post prior to my mine. Here’s a reply to yours. The simple fact that you now have 10 pitchers at the end of the draft is a huge advantage over every other team. That player being reserved could be Bucholtz, who’s making a measly 450K. I think every team is this league would be delighted if they knew they could reserve Buch (450K) prior to the draft and then replace him with R. Harden. It’s a no-brainer!.
The advantage merely being the number of players you have on your roster. Yes, i undestand that only 23 contribute. But it’s a huge advantage having Buch on your reserve list while being replaced by Rich Harden, instead of a A. Sonnonstine type. Buch or RH can be used as a trade chip now that you have the advantage of having 10 pitchers, while the rest of us have only 9. The extra pitcher is huge.
I have 27 keepers that i wish i could keep, but guess what, that isn’t allowed. So why should we make this special exemption for players starting the year on the dl?
Derek,
This is your proposal, can we hear from you?
(for the record, I like this new format, everyone can read through it prior to the WM’s)
“So my team is actually being rewarded the luxury of having pedroia and sizemore(who wouldn’t have been available to me) on my roster for the entire season.”
- I’m pretty sure you’re the only person who thinks you’re being rewarded by having DP on the DL. As a competitor of DMB’s, I’d be psyched if DP ended up on the DL. As for replacing him, go right ahead and select whomever you like, why should it bother me if you take Sizemore, Ellis, or Nick Green. None of them will outperform DP, while DP’s salary is counting against your cap doing absolutely nothing for you.
“I think every team is this league would be delighted if they knew they could reserve Buch (450K) prior to the draft and then replace him with R. Harden.”
- Did Harden clone himself? You make it seem like the draft is filled with #1 starting pitchers every year. Sure, you may have a chance to take him on draft day, and that should be your choice. Personally, I’d be happy if you took him. Since I couldn’t afford him, that’s one more minor leaguer available for selection.
“I have 27 keepers that i wish i could keep, but guess what, that isn’t allowed.”
- what’s this part mean?
We’ll use Chris Getz this time. You dl getz, and draft Sizemore to replace him. This is scenario in which you would actually be improving your roster. This scenario flies in the face of your first example. It’s about not allowing teams to stockpile players just because one of their players starts the year on the DL. Do we get special exemptions throughout the regular season that i’m not aware about? Of course not, during the year, a team would normally pick up a player of not equal value to the player being reserved. This new rule, gives the team a much higher probabililty of attaining a better player than the player being reserved. While creating an extra roster spot.
The part about the reserves players salary counting against the cap is once again irrelevant. That has and always will be the case when a player is being reserved. We are debating when that player should be reserved. So please refrain using the term salary.
-It doesn’t matter is it’s Harden, Sizemore, or anyone else. WE can’t evaluate the draft class and then say, “since there isn’t a ton of FA quality pitchers then it’s ok to allow teams to replace DL player at the draft”.
The gist of my last remark is we all have to make cuts on players prior the draft, some of the decisions are tougher for some teams over others, but my team would have a distinct advantage if i knew i could stash F. Liriano on my reserve list all year without affecting the number of keepers on my list. The Lirano example distinctly shows us how that team effectively get to have 10 pitchers on their roster by the end of the draft, while the rest of the league only has 9.
Your response “I’m pretty sure you’re the only person who thinks you’re being rewarded by having DP on the DL. As a competitor of DMB’s, I’d be psyched if DP ended up on the DL”
- DP is going to be on the DL list no matter what. His salary is going to count towards the cap no matter what. NOTHING WE CAN DO TO CHANGE THAT. DP will be replaced no matter what. But now, you want me to be allowed to replace him with a Chase Utley type player. When my 23 man roster is already filled? And you don’t think this is an advantage?
If you can’t see the advantage of being able to have an additional player on your roster at the end of the draft then there is nothing further i can say.
You can continue to explain the rule 10 different ways, nothing’s changing here. I know we both understand it, and you see it one way, EE and I see it another way. It can be boiled down to 3 points for those that want crib notes:
1) This new proposal by EE believes that you should be able to reserve a player who’s been placed on the DL by the major league team prior to the draft because under the current rule, the penalty far outweighs the offense. Currently, having a DL’d player costs you a roster spot on draft day, which means not only are you missing out on a week’s worth of stats, but you also have a salary count against the cap that’s not accruing any points. At the same time, you’re missing out on the value of the DL’d player. To me, that’s a whole lot of negative tied up to a DL’d player.
2) DMB (and maybe others) believe that teams would gain an unfair advantage because it opens up a roster spot pre-draft that isn’t currently available according to the rule in place.
“Currently, having a DL’d player costs you a roster spot on draft day”
Whether or not that player is on the DL or not, he’s costing you a roster spot, so that doesn’t change anything.
“At the same time, you’re missing out on the value of the DL’d player.”
Every time a player is DL’ed, Aren’t we missing out on the players value?
“which means not only are you missing out on a week’s worth of stats”
This is the only drawback to the current rule. But, since the draft takes place after the start of the season, we have no other option.
The easiest solution is to have the replacement player(after the completed draft) stats counts in week 1. For example, i reserve Dice-K after the draft and pick up Wake. Wake’s stats would count for week 1. Not the best solution, but at least it’s an option.
I’m not sure why WTNY and EE aren’t pushing for this. A much more reasonable approach than allowing teams to effectively start the year with more players than everyone else.
“Whether or not that player is on the DL or not, he’s costing you a roster spot, so that doesn’t change anything. ”
- If EE’s rule goes through, the DL’d player will not cost an active roster spot.
“Every time a player is DL’ed, Aren’t we missing out on the players value?”
- Yes, and most of the time it’s a detriment.
“I’m not sure why WTNY and EE aren’t pushing for this. A much more reasonable approach than allowing teams to effectively start the year with more players than everyone else.”
- I can’t speak for EE, but it’s pretty clear why I’m not pushing for it, and you are. You were the benefactor of “The Mark Hendrickson Rule”. If we change the rule as you suggest, I could pick up Wakefield after he pitched a 9 inn no-hitter on the Friday night before our draft, then drop him during our first transaction week. There’s a reason we put the Hendrickson rule in place, to prevent this type of shenanigans.
Talk to me about players getting drafted who are on the DL.
When do they get to be reserved?
Spice Draft.
So does a team that had Lackey,Santana and Wang on the DL to start the season get an competitive advantage if they are allowed to reserve them pre-draft?
Of course. The ability to draft a Harden type when you already have a full 9 man pitching staff would be classified as an advantage. The biggest difference in changing this rule is a team with a full 9 keepers would be able to draft a pitcher in the 1st round. As opposed to picking up someone after the draft who wasn’t drafted at all.
So a team who has a player started the year on the dl has a huge advantage as to the quality of player they are able to add to replace the disabled player. Not to to mention a player like Mcgowen, with whom wtny could replace with say a R. Harden type. Mcgowen is done for the year, but wtny still gets a top tier pitcher and gets to keep mcgowen on the reserve list all year.
Harden doesn’t replace 3 players or ease the burden of having close to $20M dollars on the DL. I don’t have a huge issue with this but injuries are something teams can’t control. Just like we can’t control if Brett Wallace makes Toronto opening day, but we seem to be willing to put a rule into place that allows us leave him on the farm him. How is that different, don’t we gain a competitive advantage if we can free up a roster spot for Nick Johnson or Matt Holiday?
We have to address the rules differently as they don’t have anything to do with each other, since the ability to reserve Wallace would never affect how we treat players on your keeper list whom start the year on the DL.
Remember, this rule only allows you to reserve a player who was on your keeper list. So if you draft a player on the DL in the first round, you wouldn’t be able to reserve that player till week 2. So this would allow a players stats who was picked up for a guy you reserved prior to the draft to count, but if I draft Mike Aviles, my replacements stats wouldn’t count till week 2. Can’t see how this would be a good thing.
There is no competitive advantage since every single team with have the same number of players once the draft is completed. But, if this rule passes some teams will start the year (week 1) with additional players. Mind you, these additional players could be drafted in Round 1, while the guy I drafted on DL will be replaced in Week 2 but with a player (from the Spice Draft) whom wasn’t kept or drafted by anyone.
Your right. Injuries are going to happen to every team in SOT this year. That’s part of the game. But why do we want to allow teams the ability to replace one of their DL’ed players with a player selected who can be drafted in the 1st round. When throughout the rest of the year, we are only able to replace our DL’ed players with the pool of Free Agents.
You pointed out you didn’t want teams to be able to reserve Dice and draft Harden in the first round. But you are ok with a team protecting spot that Wallace might have occupied last year? Wallace doesn’t count against the cap and I can pick a player in the first round? Yes the rules are different but they are resulting in a similar outcome that would allow teams to have two active MLB players, we are just hiding one on farm.
I like your farm proposal, I really don’t have a huge issue with players remaining on the DL throughout the draft. Just pointing out that the farm rule could give some teams an advantage if they don’t have to make a tough decision with players like Wallace.
Richie, you’re 100% correct. Mike’s proposal to change the way we handle farm players is giving an advantage to guys who have those type of players in the same way that he believes this rule is giving an advantage to teams who have DL players. However, there’s one HUGE difference. Guys who you DL are typically productive players (why else would you choose to keep them on your roster and have their salary impact your cap). So the disadvantage here really is the team with a DL’d player, and losing his production. However, guy who are on the farm are not productive, which is why you’re willing to sacrifice the player for a replacement. You hit the nail on the head here.
There remains only one week during the entire year when a team who has a known DL player on the roster, missing a week’s worth of stats, and that’s the first week. This needs to be changed.
Galvin,
“So the disadvantage here really is the team with a DL’d player, and losing his production.”
-Every team faces this during the season. Don’t see how it’s relevant.
After talking this over with many owners there seems to be 1 problem:
Teams lose out on stats for week 1. That’s It! According to WTNY and EVIL EMPIRE. The two proponents of this rule.
Here’s how we fix it:
After the draft when every team has 23 MLB and 20 farm, Teams are allowed to Reserve DL player effective week 1. They can replace them with UNDRAFTED FREE AGENTS, whom weren’t drafted or kept be any team. JUST WE DO IT EVERY OTHER WEEK IN SOT.
During every week of the season, when a guy is DL’d, you get to replace him. However, under the current rule, in week 1 we can’t do this. In a league that’s been decided by 1 total base, going a week with a replacement player, just because it happens to be the first week of the season is a joke. EE put together an intelligent proposal to change this. Your suggested fix is fine, although I’d like to include a section that says the replacement player needs to be kept on the roster for two full transaction periods, unless he’s sent to the minors, waived, or DL’d (to prevent Hendrickson’s).
Glad to see where finally onboard EE’s proposal.