Comments on: WM Proposal #11 – Net Saves & Holds

By: Richie

Richie — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:28:26 +0000

I think Chris already posted something similar. But this would be the order if we combine saves/holds…..the point totals are combined from each category last season
Total Saves/Holds 2009 with Total Points
JM 123 10pts
USA 116 10pts
TRC 93 10pts
WTNY 81 8pts
101 74 7pts
EE 70 9.5pts
Si7 61 9pts
DMB 56 8.5pts

By: TUSA

TUSA — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:35:59 +0000

I say we make holds and saves one category, called ‘Bullpen”. Like other categories winning this category equals 8 points. With in this scoring system though Saves are worth 2 and Holds are worth one.

By: WTNY

WTNY — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:43:25 +0000

Oh, I don’t think so. I haven’t thought about that really. If we did do that, the SV would still have little value.

By: Richie

Richie — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:38:48 +0000

Are saves and holds going to be on category? I’m just wondering if this is where we are going with Net saves/net holds….

By: WTNY

WTNY — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:14:31 +0000

“Are we combining saves and holds?”

- What’s this mean?

By: Richie

Richie — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:40:11 +0000

Are we combining saves and holds?

By: WTNY

WTNY — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:19:50 +0000

I don’t look at this and say, “now saves are relevant.” The same way I didn’t look at SB’s last year when we passed net-SB’s and say, “now SB’s are relevant.” I look at both of these and say, “Ok, now players are being more accurately penalized for failure, i.e. via caught stealing and blown saves.” What both of these net categories do is make the more successful players more valuable. The guys who blow less saves are more valuable to your team in this one category. Isn’t that the goal here, to reward the better players?

AG, I don’t see the Wins connection here – need some help.

And of course the other categories would be impacted in a positive way by a no-hitter, but how can we ever justify penalizing a pitcher for throwing a no-hitter because his team didn’t win the game?

By: JM

JM — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:59:11 +0000

I don’t think making holds and saves net categories makes them relevant. I actually think it makes them less relant and that is my problem. This proposal would make wins more meaningful and we agree that it is a flawed stat. Your example above does not take into account the other scoring categories that would be helped by a no hitter.

By: Richie

Richie — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:27:56 +0000

“2010

TRC – Rivera 40 Sv’s and 0 Blown Saves.
DMB – Wood 45 Saves and 10 Blown Saves.

Under the current rule, DMB would beat you in Saves.
Under the proposed rule, TRC would receive more points.

Which one makes sense to you?”
Well I’m still taking Rivera he is the better pitcher just like in this example.
2009 Rodney 37 saves 1 blown (net 36)
Papelbon 38 saves 3 blown (net 35)
I assume you want Papelbon in this case.

My biggest issues is if Rivera is perfect in saves, other pitchers on my roster can blow saves and eat into his net total. An extreme example I found was Mark Lowe 3 saves 10 BS.Now someone can say you don’t have to keep him but he has 26 Holds. Less extreme example is Oki zero saves 2 blown which would change Rivera’s 40 net saves to 38.

By: prospecttube

prospecttube — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:12:38 +0000

“Starters and relievers are capable of loses.”

True, guys who throw no hitters are capable of losses as well. The W/L is in many cases, a meaningless statistic often subjected to things like, # of runs an offense scores while the starter is on the mound, and type of defense behind said pitcher.

Last game of the season, AG is leading WTNY by one win in the hypothetical “Net W’s” category. Clay Buchholz throws a no-hitter but the Sox lose 1-0 on an error by Lowell, and Buch is saddled with the loss. John Danks goes 5 inn’s, gives up 10 hits, and 8 ER’s. Fortunately, CWS score 20 and Danks gets the win. WTNY takes the lead over AG. Sound fair to you?

I grant you that H’s and SV’s aren’t great stats either, but for relievers, do you have another suggestion on ways to keep them relevant in SOT?